Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:18 am Post subject: Corruption
Should public corruption be accepted as a normal state of affairs in countries at a certain stage of development?
I have some arguments for the positive and the negative for this one!
Anyone care to debate?
I'll start with a positive!
Corruption reduces bureaucracy and speeds the implementation of administrative practices governing economic forces of the market.
Corrupt public officials acquire incentives to create a development-friendly system for the economy. As a result, corruption starts a chain of benefits for all the economic actors, making overregulated obstructive bureaucracies much more efficient.
Corruption hurts the country and the majority of the people.
There is a recent World Bank report on the subject (cant find it now but a search should locate it), that shows how corruption holds back a countries development.
ALL the very corrupt countries are those with low growth, high poverty, high crime, etc.
Cannot find anything good to say about it. _________________ The Middle Eastern states aren't nations; they're quarrels with borders.- P. J. O'Rourke
I agree with Alan on this one. If corruption speeds up the bureaucratic system then that system needs changing.
A recent investment newsletter I received recommends investing in countries that have low corruption and/or are taking firm measures to ruduce corruption. Economic growth is higher and stock markets do better _________________ Asia Expats Forum Expat Web Directory Expat Friends Dating
Yep, gotta agree with Alan Steph on this one myself.
Admittedly, corruption "helps" sometimes when one's in a tight situation, but then there are many negative drawbacks.
In India, people that don't know how to drive and have never seen a car before can get a driver's license valid for 20 years ... just pay the right amount, and they'll hook you up.
Yep, I see what you're saying guys and in principal I agree too, but for arguments sake, here's another one or two
Corruption is a Western concept and is not applicable to traditional societies, where corruption does not have such a negative meaning. Many traditional societies with a “gift culture” have a different understanding of civil responsibilities and etiquette. The social structure and political traditions of many countries are based on the beneficial exchange of rewards for services rendered, and cannot survive in its absence.
Corruption is not a problem in its own right, but rather a symptom of wider problems of governance in some states.
Misguided socialist principles have left many developing countries (and some developed ones) with complex and burdensome tangles of rules and regulations administered by huge state machines. Often there is a lack of property rights, meaning the poor are not safe in the possession of the land they farm, and cannot borrow money against it in order to invest for the future. The poor pay of public officials is also common. These problems make ordinary people highly dependent upon the actions of individual officials and give the officials every incentive to exploit their power.
Crackdowns on corruption will achieve nothing until these underlying problems are addressed first. _________________
Yep, I see what you're saying guys and in principal I agree too, but for arguments sake, here's another one or two
Corruption is a Western concept and is not applicable to traditional societies, where corruption does not have such a negative meaning. Many traditional societies with a “gift culture” have a different understanding of civil responsibilities and etiquette. The social structure and political traditions of many countries are based on the beneficial exchange of rewards for services rendered, and cannot survive in its absence.
Simon, yes it's a western concept, but IMHO, some countries in the East (India and China included) would do very well to deal with corruption the way modern Western countries do
Perhaps I'm just biased on this one, and frustrated with the constant bribery and stuff going on in Asian countries (in countries like India, you need to bribe for just about anything to get done, including get a phone line hooked up - though the situation has admittedly improved in recent times)...
That being said, I agree that there is a "gift" (or, in Indian terms, baksheesh) culture in these countries, but I dont think the politicial structure of the country would collapse without it ... it's just that people are too used to it!
This is DEFINITELY one of the areas where one needs to learn from the West. JMHO!
Simon-Hrb wrote:
Corruption is not a problem in its own right, but rather a symptom of wider problems of governance in some states.
Misguided socialist principles have left many developing countries (and some developed ones) with complex and burdensome tangles of rules and regulations administered by huge state machines. Often there is a lack of property rights, meaning the poor are not safe in the possession of the land they farm, and cannot borrow money against it in order to invest for the future. The poor pay of public officials is also common. These problems make ordinary people highly dependent upon the actions of individual officials and give the officials every incentive to exploit their power.
Crackdowns on corruption will achieve nothing until these underlying problems are addressed first.
Agree with everything here, for corruption to be totally uprooted, there has to be a general rise in the standard of living across all levels of society, and also equal opportunities for all to prosper, and not just in theory. _________________ Dongguan Expat - Your online Community!
In many countries corruption can be seen as a natural response to shortages. Often in developing countries the demand for a service such as access to the courts, education, healthcare, or the attention of civil servants and politicians far outstrips the ability of public officials to cope.
To prevent the system from grinding to a complete halt, a way of rationing has to be found and corruption provides such a system. In effect it places a price upon a service and enables officials to prioritise and go at least some way towards dealing with all the demands upon their time and resources. _________________
In many countries corruption can be seen as a natural response to shortages. Often in developing countries the demand for a service such as access to the courts, education, healthcare, or the attention of civil servants and politicians far outstrips the ability of public officials to cope.
To prevent the system from grinding to a complete halt, a way of rationing has to be found and corruption provides such a system. In effect it places a price upon a service and enables officials to prioritise and go at least some way towards dealing with all the demands upon their time and resources.
Agree with all the above, I just meant to say it's a stop gap solution (sort of) and the main goal should be to move towards a corruption free society (at least as far as humanly possible).
Ah, the teaching is going as well as can be expected, it's somewhat mundane and repetative, it's not exactly rocket science eh?
Ain't rocket science mate ...
Which is why it PISSES me off that schools tell me I can't teach because I'm not white?? What the bloody hell????
I speak US English, I have a degree, this is ALL they should need ...
[FOUR LETTER WORD] Chinese schools are racist as hell if they really follow this bloody policy. BLOODY GODDAMN HELL - why in the name of Jesus or Allah or whoever's God should I not freaking be qualified to teach English - it's pretty much my friggin mother tongue for Christ's sake ...
Why should skin color matter?? I bet this is an interesting issue for this forum.
Mike, sorry for the cuss words, but it's an issue close to me, had to get it out (plus I've had plenty of beer, and Simon's the sort of guy one can rant to;) - I'm sure he's seen plenty of it in the army!!) . I'd post it on my site, but there's quite a few sanctimonius pricks there who'd just freaking bitch and moan I posted that.
Sorry again for the cuss words, but had to get it out.
Well this one will have you puzzled, it sure has me perplexed.
I know a couple of Nigerian guys (black) of course, English certainly isn't their first language, in fact their English is quite terrible and yet they hold jobs teaching English.
I don't know for which school they work, though I assume it's a bad one, judging by their level of English. I know they work for cash on a tourist visa, so that kind of rules out any quality schools and god (or whoever) help em when the Govt. catches them. _________________
Well this one will have you puzzled, it sure has me perplexed.
I know a couple of Nigerian guys (black) of course, English certainly isn't their first language, in fact their English is quite terrible and yet they hold jobs teaching English.
I don't know for which school they work, though I assume it's a bad one, judging by their level of English. I know they work for cash on a tourist visa, so that kind of rules out any quality schools and god (or whoever) help em when the Govt. catches them.
I was contacted by one of those "schools" to work for them. Salary of 3000RMB/month - utilities and rent not paid for - in a remote part of China. Probably no-one with any sense takes those jobs, so they're forced to accept the remaining few that have applied.
Also, I talked to this school about my visa etc ... they kept saying they'll "convert" it, but when I told them everything they'd need to do (I've been down this road before, and it's not that simple just to "convert" a visa to a working visa), they didnt want to listen.
And another school offered me a contract which said something totally different from what they verbally told me - but you know all bout that one _________________ Dongguan Expat - Your online Community!
Ah, the teaching is going as well as can be expected, it's somewhat mundane and repetative, it's not exactly rocket science eh?
Ain't rocket science mate ...
Which is why it PISSES me off that schools tell me I can't teach because I'm not white?? What the bloody hell????
I speak US English, I have a degree, this is ALL they should need ...
[FOUR LETTER WORD] Chinese schools are racist as hell if they really follow this bloody policy. BLOODY GODDAMN HELL - why in the name of Jesus or Allah or whoever's God should I not freaking be qualified to teach English - it's pretty much my friggin mother tongue for Christ's sake ...
Why should skin color matter?? I bet this is an interesting issue for this forum.
Mike, sorry for the cuss words, but it's an issue close to me, had to get it out (plus I've had plenty of beer, and Simon's the sort of guy one can rant to;) - I'm sure he's seen plenty of it in the army!!) . I'd post it on my site, but there's quite a few sanctimonius pricks there who'd just freaking bitch and moan I posted that.
Sorry again for the cuss words, but had to get it out.
Ah, the teaching is going as well as can be expected, it's somewhat mundane and repetative, it's not exactly rocket science eh?
Ain't rocket science mate ...
Which is why it PISSES me off that schools tell me I can't teach because I'm not white?? What the bloody hell????
I speak US English, I have a degree, this is ALL they should need ...
[FOUR LETTER WORD] Chinese schools are racist as hell if they really follow this bloody policy. BLOODY GODDAMN HELL - why in the name of Jesus or Allah or whoever's God should I not freaking be qualified to teach English - it's pretty much my friggin mother tongue for Christ's sake ...
Why should skin color matter?? I bet this is an interesting issue for this forum.
Mike, sorry for the cuss words, but it's an issue close to me, had to get it out (plus I've had plenty of beer, and Simon's the sort of guy one can rant to;) - I'm sure he's seen plenty of it in the army!!) . I'd post it on my site, but there's quite a few sanctimonius pricks there who'd just freaking bitch and moan I posted that.
Sorry again for the cuss words, but had to get it out.
Can't blame you for being pissed off Rahul. Is there any path for you to make a claim officially? or would that be suicide?
Hi Mike -
You bring up an interesting point. IF the schools OFFICIALLY (as in writing) told me that they wanted Caucasian teachers, then I could probably complain yes. Though it probably wouldn't do much good ...
Government wouldn't give a crap either way on this one - they pretty much ignore us foreigners ranting and lodging cases against each other ... (ok, in this case a school maybe, but schools are private institutions and fair game IMO).
But, at the end of the day, things are what they are, and ranting wont really change anything. But, feels good to get it out of the system once in a while - you know how it goes
And BTW I did end up posting it on my site, albeit without too many cuss words (I think) and it ended up getting a ton of replies anyway. lmao _________________ Dongguan Expat - Your online Community!
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Probably no-one with any sense takes those jobs, so they're forced to accept the remaining few that have applied.